Message For JB
Here is a the question I posed to my hobby board, there is a sub-board discussing precious metals. The button just under this section is a link to Midwest Refinery (that is the one I couldn't remember, but is recommended by one of my online friends, which refreshed my memory). They are reputable, but if there are stones in the jewelry you will NOT get value for them.
MY POST:
I am on a completely unrelated facebook group--about investing in general for a subset of professionals (a well vetted group). Someone asked about 'how to sell gold'. Well, I know a little about that part...but upon further questioning he says he has '$100,000 in jewelry' in his SDB he wants to liquidate.
Assuming this were non-collectable and he was purely trying to recover the gold (and it really is $100K in actual gold, not the 'I paid this much for it' nonsense), how best does one do THAT? He lives in NYC by the way.
I was thinking a direct sale to a smelter (who is good?) vs. checking with a local jewelry store that might use it, vs. even a brick and mortar coin shop? Not the street corner 'WE BUY GOLD' dude/dudettes, or if he did that route, what % of spot is reasonable?
I also told him if there was any kind of significant value above the gold content then perhaps having that amount of jewelry appraised/looked at (would Heritage be interested if it was really cool stuff??) might be an option.
That said, I also said stay away from eBay--that is a rip off waiting to happen not to mention he would be completely untrusted given his lack of eBay history.
If you were shipping to a smelter, who would you ship to? I vaguely remember looking into this years ago, but I can't remember who was worthy.
Responses
#1
A difficult problem. It's hard for me to imagine $100,000 worth of gold jewelry in a safe deposit box being run of the mill scrap jewelry.
A thumbnail sketch shows that would be somewhere around 8 pounds of scrap. That's about what gallon of milk weighs.
Maybe that's what he's got. But if it's in a SDB, it seems more likely it's better quality jewelry, maybe some with stones. A scrapper won't pay anything for stones--may even discount for them. But they'll definitely resell them at a huge mark up if they can.
If he really knows nothing about jewelry and can't tell a carat from a karat, here's what I would suggest: Take a rough accounting of what he has. A simple spreadsheet. You don't have to list everything, but the more the better. Take lots of photographs. Spend an hour, it won't kill you.
THEN find a trusted local B&M jeweler who will do an appraisal. Expect to pay a few hundred dollars. DO NOT SELL to them and make sure they know up front you won't be selling to them. You're paying for their expertise and time, don't make it a conflict of interest.
If they say it's all scrap, then ship it to Midwest or another refiner. But I suspect there is some good stuff in there that will more than pay for the appraisal.
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#2
Have him go to the diamond district and walk to a handful of the store fronts down there and ask for offers.
What he should accept for offers depends on what he has. If it is 100k in broken jewelry or junk that wouldn't be able to be retailed, I would say 97%-99% of spot and closer to 99% with that large of an amount. If it is undamaged chains, designer jewelry and stuff that consumers can buy without any work I would hold out for more...hard to say how much more without seeing what they have. I would recommend pulling out anything with designer names or intricate designs and that should be sold individually. Obviously don't let anyone take the lot out of eyesight or keep it overnight to price it...
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MY POST:
I am on a completely unrelated facebook group--about investing in general for a subset of professionals (a well vetted group). Someone asked about 'how to sell gold'. Well, I know a little about that part...but upon further questioning he says he has '$100,000 in jewelry' in his SDB he wants to liquidate.
Assuming this were non-collectable and he was purely trying to recover the gold (and it really is $100K in actual gold, not the 'I paid this much for it' nonsense), how best does one do THAT? He lives in NYC by the way.
I was thinking a direct sale to a smelter (who is good?) vs. checking with a local jewelry store that might use it, vs. even a brick and mortar coin shop? Not the street corner 'WE BUY GOLD' dude/dudettes, or if he did that route, what % of spot is reasonable?
I also told him if there was any kind of significant value above the gold content then perhaps having that amount of jewelry appraised/looked at (would Heritage be interested if it was really cool stuff??) might be an option.
That said, I also said stay away from eBay--that is a rip off waiting to happen not to mention he would be completely untrusted given his lack of eBay history.
If you were shipping to a smelter, who would you ship to? I vaguely remember looking into this years ago, but I can't remember who was worthy.
Responses
#1
A difficult problem. It's hard for me to imagine $100,000 worth of gold jewelry in a safe deposit box being run of the mill scrap jewelry.
A thumbnail sketch shows that would be somewhere around 8 pounds of scrap. That's about what gallon of milk weighs.
Maybe that's what he's got. But if it's in a SDB, it seems more likely it's better quality jewelry, maybe some with stones. A scrapper won't pay anything for stones--may even discount for them. But they'll definitely resell them at a huge mark up if they can.
If he really knows nothing about jewelry and can't tell a carat from a karat, here's what I would suggest: Take a rough accounting of what he has. A simple spreadsheet. You don't have to list everything, but the more the better. Take lots of photographs. Spend an hour, it won't kill you.
THEN find a trusted local B&M jeweler who will do an appraisal. Expect to pay a few hundred dollars. DO NOT SELL to them and make sure they know up front you won't be selling to them. You're paying for their expertise and time, don't make it a conflict of interest.
If they say it's all scrap, then ship it to Midwest or another refiner. But I suspect there is some good stuff in there that will more than pay for the appraisal.
________________________________________________________________
#2
Have him go to the diamond district and walk to a handful of the store fronts down there and ask for offers.
What he should accept for offers depends on what he has. If it is 100k in broken jewelry or junk that wouldn't be able to be retailed, I would say 97%-99% of spot and closer to 99% with that large of an amount. If it is undamaged chains, designer jewelry and stuff that consumers can buy without any work I would hold out for more...hard to say how much more without seeing what they have. I would recommend pulling out anything with designer names or intricate designs and that should be sold individually. Obviously don't let anyone take the lot out of eyesight or keep it overnight to price it...
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The Advice, in no particular order (and some new commentary added)
(Just friendly advice I wish I could give my younger self, without cheating and including actual stock picks, not all inclusive, but the list does keep growing). Some are random thoughts, others are things to plan. Some is marital advice!
My order for prioritizing finances--
Possibly swap 5 and 6. If dead or divorced there are implications for still having a student loan vs. a car loan. Even so, the car loan should be only the most basic of transportation until you can pay cash for it. You can’t pay cash until the student loans are gone.
________________________________________________________________________________
My version of the ideal accumulation phase (using Vanguard funds/etfs)
VTASX/VTI 60% total domestic stock market
VTIAX/VXUS 30% total international stock market
VGSLX/VNQ 10% REIT index
(many would be using bonds instead of REIT here, and I confess to using the idea of a military pension to go strong on non-bonds)
Preservation phase (for near, early, and even mid-retirement)
VTASX/VTI 35% (total US stock market)
VTIAX/VXUS 25% (total International stocks)
VAIPX 10% (intermediate US TIPS bonds)
VSBSX/VGSH 10% (short term US bonds, or use bank CDs)
VBTLX/BND 10% (total US bond market)
VGSLX/VNQ 10% (REITS, US only vs a split with US/Int)
At this point I'm 60/30/10 for stocks, bonds, and REIT. For the stocks some split 40/20 with US/international. I tilted a bit more towards the international. Probably not important.
Have a rental property or two or so
Have a money market with 1-2 years of expenses once retirement hits
______________________________________
Great Resources for being sensible
Physicians on Fire (financial independence/retire early)
The White Coat Investor
The Simple Path to Wealth
Bogleheads
Links below to some of these. Plus a couple extras with different perspectives. If you can read only a few, start with WCI, Bogleheads, and TPtoW. Physicians on Fire is a little more extreme take for financial independence, even if you skip the 're' or retire early part.
I need to find a link on real estate investing for this level.
(Just friendly advice I wish I could give my younger self, without cheating and including actual stock picks, not all inclusive, but the list does keep growing). Some are random thoughts, others are things to plan. Some is marital advice!
- Have an emergency fund (COVID-19 has made it clear even the 'employed' with a 'contract' are vulnerable)
- No consumer debt (credit cards) except minimum car(s) required for work/fam
- Maximize all tax favored retirement accounts. Time is money here.
- Always invest enough for a ‘match’. It’s free money.
- If you have access to the TSP, use it. When bonds become important, the G-fund is golden, political shenanigans aside
- Pay off the student loans (they don’t die in bankruptcy+divorce/death issues). They are an albatross around your neck keeping you tied to unfavorable employment/professional positions. If you 'need' to pay your loans, then some other entity can own you.
- Start a 529 for each kiddo when born (Time/money again). Remember, the owner can empty it, re-designate the beneficiary etc, so be cognizant of funding and malicious exes. Don't fund it at the expense of your own retirement.
- Contribute enough to the 529 to get the full state tax benefit if any/at a minimum
- No car loans after the basic ‘need’ car for work/school only. This means pay cash for luxury. It's okay to have a basic car loan if it gets you to work, but you don't need more than basic, reliable transportation. It's okay to buy a fancy car, but only with disposable income.
- Pay off the mortgage. This is the one thing that if you had to, you could sell and clear the debt in dire circumstances
- Know what your means are and live beneath them
- Don’t buy annuities or whole life insurance unless you have unusual circumstances. Don’t let a ‘financial advisor’ aka salesman bamboozle you. If you don't know the unusual circumstances, you probably don't need it.
- And to be clear, investments are investments to grow wealth. Insurance is insurance to protect against significant losses to property, heath, ability to earn an income (disability insurance--get it), and life. Keep them separate.
- By the time you know enough about a financial advisor to know if the are ripping you off, you can probably do 95% of it yourself. Notice I did not say ‘accountant’ or ‘lawyer’ or ‘doctor’. A fee only advisor can be very helpful though.
- No one cares more about your money than you do
- An advisor’s first job is to pay his mortgage, not yours
- Money managers don’t want your money paying off loans, they want it in ‘their’ accounts so they can ‘manage’ for you, so remember that if they say invest vs. pay off a loan.
- Never, ever, ever put a tax favored vehicle (annuity) in another tax favored vehicle (IRA)
- Saving is not the same as investing, investing is what brings you freedom
- Who owns the company? Who gets a slice of profits? Fidelity/Johnsons, TRoweP/stockholders, Vanguard/customers. And don’t get me started on ‘full service brokers’. This is why I like Vanguard so much.
- (from SPtW) Avoid fiscally irresponsible people and DON’T MARRY ONE
- Work your ass off early so you have choices later
- Low income/taxes go ROTH; higher income/taxes/go Traditional.
- Do a backdoor Roth if you can't do it otherwise.
- When 3-4% of your investment assets (NOT NET WORTH) cover your expenses, you are free. More is gravy and nothing wrong with that.
- Notice that does not mean saving a multiple of your last salary, no matter what the pundits say. That is another way to get you to maximize money into 'the system'.
- Despite what SPtW (see link below) says, buying a house can be a smart move at the right time/place/cost. It is net worth building but not an investment. But buy that first one looking for one that will make a great investment property later.
- Fuck you money. Sorry for the profanity, but it's a phrase from a movie. Link below (the position of FU, yes profanity)
- There is no good debt. Only acceptable debt. That is debt that gets you something to make you stronger (housing, education—using common sense, and a very basic car to get you to work/school…anything else is a luxury).
- Don’t skimp on shoes, mattresses, bras.
- Abnormal returns come from abnormal risks. Be aware.
- Asset allocation is important, and varies over your life cycle. There are accumulation phases, and maintenance phases.
- Don't forget real estate. Your primary home is not part of your investment portfolio, you still have housing needs and this is how you are fulfilling them. That said, real estate is a huge way to generate alternative income and wealth. It's a different mindset and worth looking into.
- If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
- And investing is where 'matching' and not 'beating' is the win. Putting enormous amounts of time and energy into figuring out the winning companies/strategies to invest in is done by pros. Even the interested amateur is unlikely to 'beat the market' consistently. For long term wealth building, meet the market. It's okay to have some fun if it interests you, but the majority of investments should be in the indexes.
- Get a lawyer to look over an employment contract. In detail.
My order for prioritizing finances--
- Have a fully funded emergency fund in cash/cash equivalents
- Invest for the match on tax favored accounts
- Erase non-car consumer debt
- Maximize all tax favored retirement accounts you can
- TERM life insurance, disability insurance, health insurance, renters/homeowners, and UMBRELLA too
- No car loan for anything above basic/safe transportation for school/employment (and in this case, pay it all off)
- Pay off student loans…they don’t die in bankruptcy or even with death sometimes. And you can’t sell your education in an emergency
- Start a 529 plan for the kiddos to match your state’s tax benefit if any. Get the state tax benefit and slip this in whereever that fits in this list. Additional contributions can go here.
- Save up for the next car so you can just buy it
- Start investing in taxable accounts (can start after 5 if 6 is on track)
- Kill the mortgage, you could at least sell the house in an emergency, or if not kill it, ensure it is not underwater.
- Add any extra to the 529s once you are comfortable with your other investments
- Have a vacation or silly fund . Don’t be afraid to live a little! (insert this one anywhere after #4, using common sense).
Possibly swap 5 and 6. If dead or divorced there are implications for still having a student loan vs. a car loan. Even so, the car loan should be only the most basic of transportation until you can pay cash for it. You can’t pay cash until the student loans are gone.
________________________________________________________________________________
My version of the ideal accumulation phase (using Vanguard funds/etfs)
VTASX/VTI 60% total domestic stock market
VTIAX/VXUS 30% total international stock market
VGSLX/VNQ 10% REIT index
(many would be using bonds instead of REIT here, and I confess to using the idea of a military pension to go strong on non-bonds)
Preservation phase (for near, early, and even mid-retirement)
VTASX/VTI 35% (total US stock market)
VTIAX/VXUS 25% (total International stocks)
VAIPX 10% (intermediate US TIPS bonds)
VSBSX/VGSH 10% (short term US bonds, or use bank CDs)
VBTLX/BND 10% (total US bond market)
VGSLX/VNQ 10% (REITS, US only vs a split with US/Int)
At this point I'm 60/30/10 for stocks, bonds, and REIT. For the stocks some split 40/20 with US/international. I tilted a bit more towards the international. Probably not important.
Have a rental property or two or so
Have a money market with 1-2 years of expenses once retirement hits
______________________________________
Great Resources for being sensible
Physicians on Fire (financial independence/retire early)
The White Coat Investor
The Simple Path to Wealth
Bogleheads
Links below to some of these. Plus a couple extras with different perspectives. If you can read only a few, start with WCI, Bogleheads, and TPtoW. Physicians on Fire is a little more extreme take for financial independence, even if you skip the 're' or retire early part.
I need to find a link on real estate investing for this level.